https://www.theoutdoorwire.com/releases/9e020f9a-8547-4b18-a36c-1a1c67b8e9ce?fbclid=IwAR234_e9bAlQxIHSMey4xF_QU2ATg2tCJpIIetUPP_nIjDpcAO6_F-PXQiY
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Division of Wildlife Proposes Reduced Limit for 2022 Spring Wild Turkey Hunting Season
COLUMBUS, Ohio – In response to declining wild turkey populations during the past few years, the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife proposed reducing the 2022 spring wild turkey season limit from two to one bearded turkey. The proposal was made by Division of Wildlife staff to the Ohio Wildlife Council at its regularly scheduled meeting on Wednesday, Aug. 4.
If approved by the Ohio Wildlife Council, all hunters will be limited to one bearded (male) wild turkey during the spring 2022 hunting season. This proposal includes the statewide spring wild turkey hunting season and the youth spring hunting season.
Wild turkey populations have declined in much of Ohio following several years of below average reproductive success. Preliminary wild turkey reports submitted to Division of Wildlife biologists during the summer of 2021 show some improvement in young turkey (poult) numbers. However, the complete information on which harvest management decisions are based will not be available until September. The proposed revision to the 2022 spring wild turkey season limit would remain in place until trends in reproductive success improve.
No changes were proposed to the 2022 spring wild turkey hunting season dates, zones (south and northeast), hours, or methods of take. Further, no changes were proposed to Ohio's fall 2021 wild turkey hunting season.
The Division of Wildlife began an extensive program in the 1950s to reintroduce wild turkeys to the Buckeye State. Ohio's first modern day wild turkey season opened in 1966 in nine counties, and hunters checked 12 birds. The total number of harvested turkeys topped 1,000 for the first time in 1984. The spring season limit has been two bearded wild turkeys since 1993. Spring turkey hunting was opened statewide in 2000. The record Ohio wild turkey harvest was in 2001, when hunters checked 26,156 birds. The 2021 spring harvest was 14,541 birds.
Comments about the proposed wild turkey season limit change will be accepted at wildohio.gov.
Now for the data:
Interestingly enough, the trend line for harvest is pretty much flat. The spike in 2017-18 is thanks to a bumper hatch in the previous years primarily attributed to the periodical cicada.
(https://i.imgur.com/sNGXqPp.jpg)
In the following you can see your typical peaks and valleys of turkey population fluctuations that occur after the reintroduction boom. However now days the oscillations across many states do have lower peaks.
(https://i.imgur.com/ourCN7U.jpg)
Looks like Ohio could save just as many adult gobblers for the next spring by eliminating jake harvest rather than reducing the bag limit.
(https://i.imgur.com/xdwa8jK.jpg)
And lastly but not least, here you can see turkey hunters hadn't been declining in recent years and non-resident hunters were on the rise way before COVID. Non-rez rose 20% between 2016-2019. Can't wait to see what kind of numbers 2021 brought!
One thing that is a bit alarming is the reduction in youth permits pre-COVID.
(https://i.imgur.com/CjyBPB9.jpg)
I live in Ohio and I'm fine with a decrease in bag limit. I don't think it's going to change things much for the better but I believe anything and everything will help some. Our predator numbers are extremely high nowadays. I do everything I can to help the wild turkey population.
In my opinion a few more things need to be in place for us to see a nice rebound.
Our bobcat numbers are getting high. We have no season for bobcats in Ohio. We better get one started very soon or we will be behind the curve on that one. I read something the other day that Ohio DNR doesn't have any research to suggest that bobcats have any impact on turkey populations. Am I wrong to assume that they absolutely do have some negative impact? Our bobcat numbers have increased very fast as our turkey numbers have decreased very fast.
My next concern is that, if Ohio DNR feels a need to lower bag limits on spring gobblers then we need to stop allowing a hen to be shot! I still cannot figure out why hens are allowed to be shot in fall or spring. If your population is struggling then DO NOT SHOOT HENS!!
We need to be allowed to coon trap more than just a limited time in the winter. Our coons are out of control. I've trapped over 300 coons and possums in 4 years in one single location. We should be allowed to trap them all year or at least expand the season much longer than it currently is.
Always can use more habitat focus. Why not create better habitat every chance we get?!
Our hawk population is high. I've seen them wipe out an amazing amount of poults. A couple years ago we had 42 poults hatch successfully. We ended up with 7 by late July. Cooper's Hawks went crazy and picked them off one by one. I wish we could control the hawk population somehow. There's just too many of them.
I hope everyone can band together and bring the turkey back to the fun populations of the early 2000s. I'd like my kids and their kids and their kids to enjoy what I have!
States seem like they have all decided to just hit the easy button at the expense of turkey hunters. They just cut bag limits and reduce season dates as if those are the only options. If the goal is to reduce the overall harvest of turkeys, this will no doubt work, but is it the only option? Jake restrictions and bearded hen restriction for Ohio would have saved several thousand birds.
What if the same goal could be accomplished by restricting certain methods of turkey hunting? We have no doubt continued to innovate turkey hunting and that has made it easier than ever before to kill a turkey. In a heavy ag state like Ohio, a decoy restriction and reaping restriction would reduce harvest. Why are there no studies being done to see if a decoy ban would be just as effective as a bag limit reduction? Maybe I am too old school, but I would much rather have more days to hunt and a higher bag limit while having my methodology restricted. No decoys, no tss, no reaping.. whatever it may be. Heck I would rather have to go bow only but still get to go, then have days cut off my season and I suck with a bow. I would love to see some studies done on this topic to prove or disprove these thoughts. Can method restrictions be just as effective as bag limit restriction and cutting days from the season? Make turkey hunting hard again.
Sadly as the previous commenter mentioned states definitely are taking the easy way out. I'm sure if this reduction in bag limits passes the DNR in Ohio will pat themselves on the back in a few seasons and chalk this restriction up as a win for themselves. Although there is nothing warranting this brash change in regulation as Deerhunt1988's data points out. I chalk this up to the fear mongering chamberlain effect, I'm sure this proposal was stirred up due to public outcry of hunters who've not yet seen the highs and lows of population swings every few years.. and just freaked out due to numbers being down compared to their rookie season in 2018. As Cwedding pointed out, I'm sure the elimination of killing hens and Jakes in Ohio would compensate and contribute more to the Ohio turkey population rather than restricting residents and non residents alike from taking a 2nd Buckeye state spring gobbler.
Do these states not realize about 40% of adult gobblers die every year of natural causes? The hens are getting bred, the poults are not surviving. Reducing the bag limit will have zero benefit in helping the poults survive. What percent of Ohio hunters even fill both tags? I bet its minuscule like in most states.
Would'nt hurt to ban deer feeders either or should we call them coon feeders ?
Outlaw jake killing and save 24% right off the bat.
I'm good with it, but i don't think it is going to help much. At least Odnr is acknowledging there is a problem. I think hens should be off limits, and cut the fall season temporarily. I wonder how many are taken by archery hunters over deer bait piles, too.Bait piles are vectors for disease, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the practice was stopped. I think the biggest problems though have been the nest robbers, and wet spring/early summer.As another poster pointed out, coon populations are out of control, as well as other predators. I know in my neck of Ohio, poult survival has been poor for several years. The overall population has been in a steady decline for awhile around here. Outlawing decoys and silly stuff like that isn't going to do anything to help the flock. Increasing poult survival rates will. Predator reduction will have the biggest impact as what we can personally do, as we can't control the weather.That's my 2 cents worth anyways.
What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.
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Quote from: AndyH on August 07, 2021, 02:05:55 AM
What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.
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This is exactly right. This is 100% reactionary to what hunters asked for. I know I am about to agitate some people, but I feel like just telling the truth and let the chips fall. Hunters do a lot of whining and most of it is personal feelings that has zero basis in any factually verified data. Our Wildlife agencies listen way more than they get credit for. This is a prime example of what uninformed whining gets you. As the graphs
deer hunter posted shows, the linear curve on harvest is flat over the last two decades. Sure there are fluctuations, everything in nature fluctuates. I don't see a catastrophic fall in Ohio. Is there a trend, perhaps. I hear a lot of hunters expressing concern that there aren't birds like there was 20+ years ago and transpose that into there is a problem. I have said it for years, most of what we see is post stocking boom and saturation leveling off, and what we are left with is a sustainable carrying capacity. This regulation will not turn anything around, it is simply pandering to the mob. Just like so much of what we see in this country in the past few years.
Now, let's address the mountain instead of stomping on the mole hill and yelling, "we hear you and we're working on it, see we're acting on your concern". Like others have said, the root problem is not survival of male turkeys, it's poult survival and habitat. When I was in the Division of wildlife I heard the term recruitment used most often. All the regulations should be geared towards improving recruitment (new young entering the flock and surviving to adult hood). They use recruitment as the excuse for this, because it sounds good, but in reality they are giving the whining kids what they want. So when you start complaining on internet forums, replying with emotions on surveys, writing your agencies or telling biologist/ game wardens something needs done, be careful what you ask for, you just may get it.
I do agree there are some issues in the turkey flock, but I can't honestly see how this regulation changes the trend. About 40% of successful hunters fill the second tag. So approximately 5,500 -6,500 gobblers will survive. If you break that down sate wide it comes to ~.6 per square mile or around 20 per township or about one gobbler for every 1,000 acres. Do we really believe saving one gobbler for every thousand acres will save our flock? I know on my family's thousand acres we average about 15 mature gobblers a year as residents. We usually kill 4-5 a year. So can anyone tell me the difference in poult survival between 10 surviving gobblers and 11?
I am an avid fall hunter and I can see more argument against a fall season then this lunacy. I would desire to keep the fall season, but I would give it up if I believed it would stabilize the flock. I do doubt that it would, but it makes more sense then reducing the spring bag limit by one. At least you'd be saving some hens.
The elephant in the room is and always has been predators, weather and habitat. Addressing all those is far more difficult and time demanding. It will take a lot of work and money with more controversy. This is pandering, plain and simple. I really would like to see the science that shows saving a small percentage of the gobblers, in Ohio, will change anything. I realize in some areas of the country it may make a difference, but this is not one of them. Again look at the mean (lateral curve) on the harvest graph, it's flat! what is happening to our flock is not harvest related, period.
Similar actions could be taken in Northeastern States in coming years.
Quote from: eggshell on August 07, 2021, 07:58:59 AM
Quote from: AndyH on August 07, 2021, 02:05:55 AM
What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is exactly right. This is 100% reactionary to what hunters asked for. I know I am about to agitate some people, but I feel like just telling the truth and let the chips fall. Hunters do a lot of whining and most of it is personal feelings that has zero basis in any factually verified data. Our Wildlife agencies listen way more than they get credit for. This is a prime example of what uninformed whining gets you. As the graphs deer hunter posted shows, the linear curve on harvest is flat over the last two decades. Sure there are fluctuations, everything in nature fluctuates. I don't see a catastrophic fall in Ohio. Is there a trend, perhaps. I hear a lot of hunters expressing concern that there aren't birds like there was 20+ years ago and transpose that into there is a problem. I have said it for years, most of what we see is post stocking boom and saturation leveling off, and what we are left with is a sustainable carrying capacity. This regulation will not turn anything around, it is simply pandering to the mob. Just like so much of what we see in this country in the past few years.
Now, let's address the mountain instead of stomping on the mole hill and yelling, "we hear you and we're working on it, see we're acting on your concern". Like others have said, the root problem is not survival of male turkeys, it's poult survival and habitat. When I was in the Division of wildlife I heard the term recruitment used most often. All the regulations should be geared towards improving recruitment (new young entering the flock and surviving to adult hood). They use recruitment as the excuse for this, because it sounds good, but in reality they are giving the whining kids what they want. So when you start complaining on internet forums, replying with emotions on surveys, writing your agencies or telling biologist/ game wardens something needs done, be careful what you ask for, you just may get it.
I do agree there are some issues in the turkey flock, but I can't honestly see how this regulation changes the trend. About 40% of successful hunters fill the second tag. So approximately 5,500 -6,500 gobblers will survive. If you break that down sate wide it comes to ~.6 per square mile or around 20 per township or about one gobbler for every 1,000 acres. Do we really believe saving one gobbler for every thousand acres will save our flock? I know on my family's thousand acres we average about 15 mature gobblers a year as residents. We usually kill 4-5 a year. So can anyone tell me the difference in poult survival between 10 surviving gobblers and 11?
I am an avid fall hunter and I can see more argument against a fall season then this lunacy. I would desire to keep the fall season, but I would give it up if I believed it would stabilize the flock. I do doubt that it would, but it makes more sense then reducing the spring bag limit by one. At least you'd be saving some hens.
The elephant in the room is and always has been predators, weather and habitat. Addressing all those is far more difficult and time demanding. It will take a lot of work and money with more controversy. This is pandering, plain and simple. I really would like to see the science that shows saving a small percentage of the gobblers, in Ohio, will change anything. I realize in some areas of the country it may make a difference, but this is not one of them. Again look at the mean (lateral curve) on the harvest graph, it's flat! what is happening to our flock is not harvest related, period.
I agree with this 100%. Having said that, I also understand where the general hunting public (in any state) is coming from. I have seen it here, and I suspect a lot of others see it in their states, too.
We have a conundrum that is "a tough nut to crack",...and here it is:
The folks that hunt public lands are seeing increased hunting pressure and fewer turkeys. Many of those folks are not "serious" turkey hunters, but they go out a few days to hunt and a significant number of them are unsuccessful. Again, they see more hunters,...and hear fewer gobblers every year.
So,...what is their natural reaction going to be? They are saying to themselves,..."The woods are full of turkey hunters, and I am seeing fewer and fewer turkeys every year. Why are we letting hunters kill two gobblers when many of us are not able to kill one?" That is a natural reaction,...and I don't think it is all that uncommon. Hence, you see the results of those "hunter surveys".
Here's where the "wicket gets sticky". PRIVATE landowners don't have that problem. They can make improvements on their land, control predators, etc. such that their turkey numbers are stable. They also can control HUNTER NUMBERS on their property!
That is all well and good,...but here's the catch: The wild turkeys within a state's borders are "held in trust" for the people of that state. That is, the citizens of the state "own" all of the turkeys, whether they are on public or private land.
The bottom line is that, at the end of the day those "citizens" are going to control hunting regulations,...and a lot of those "citizens" are those that make up that portion of turkey hunters who are resigned to hunting public lands,...and in turn, are the ones that are witnessing those increasing hunter numbers and decreasing turkey numbers!
So, the next question is,...Do you think those public land hunters are benevolent enough to say,..."hmmm,...we own the turkeys and the places we get to hunt are pretty sh*tty, but let's go ahead and let those lucky hunters that have private lands to hunt kill more turkeys than we get to?" ...If you believe that is going to happen, I've got a bridge in the desert of New Mexico that I will sell you... ;D :angel9:
Quote from: GobbleNut on August 07, 2021, 09:57:59 AM
So, the next question is,...Do you think those public land hunters are benevolent enough to say,..."hmmm,...we own the turkeys and the places we get to hunt are pretty sh*tty, but let's go ahead and let those lucky hunters that have private lands to hunt kill more turkeys than we get to?" ...If you believe that is going to happen, I've got a bridge in the desert of New Mexico that I will sell you... ;D :angel9:
Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.
Public land hunters have recently been getting shafted thanks to the explosion in popularity of public land/traveling turkey hunting. And we might as well stay bent over because the current trend has more shafts coming our way.
Quote from: AndyH on August 07, 2021, 02:05:55 AM
What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.
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I don't understand that. Ohioans must want to submit to a 1 bird 2 week season like their brethren to the west in Indiana. Not sure why folks advocate for their hunting opportunity to be further restricted. If someone's property has a low population of birds why not set a personal limit of one gobbler, then travel to say either a buddys property, wma, etc to try and fill your second tag. It's very irresponsible for folks to jump on this bandwagon of wanting their seasons restricted statewide based on their observations on their 200 acre family farm or local wma that has been pounded by non residents the past couple years. As it has already been pointed out the elimination of jakes and hens in spring would save 15-25% of birds in the state without taking away one off the bag limit. The mass hysteria on the Internet forums and Facebook groups these last few years and led by some "doom and gloom" biologists is to blame for this, this proposal isn't backed by science. If only we had a biologist out there who would stand up and voice his studies in opposition to all this season cutting and bag limit reductions.... I mean hell look at Arkansas they have tried this shorter season and reduced bag limit for what? 10 years. Doesn't seem as if they've improved the slightest.
What color is your bridge and do you deliver :goofball:
I don't disagree gobblenut. I fully expect this change to happen, as rarely does the wildlife council ever deny our wildlife division any reg they ask for. They mostly are a review board and typically a rubber stamp entity.
I have seen a few other such things come up and they have typically had one of two results:
They have made zero difference and yielded no significant change in the effected population
or
They have made it much worse.
Then there are cases where a season legitimately should have been closed and it wasn't, because there was no voice demanding it (i.e. Ruffed Grouse) .
So I will expect to only get one tag next year and in 5 years we'll still be crying about what is happening to our turkeys....I hope everyone can remind me I was wrong, that would delight me. what I will do next year is simply travel more to get my turkey hunting fix. So look out surrounding states, the buckeyes are coming, because when they fill their only tag in the first day or two, they will be coming to your neighborhood, bank on it.
Please understand I am not just being one of the greedy bastards that just wants his way. I am actually bashing the very Agency I spent most of my adult life working for. I truly believe this will not fix the decline. Gobblenut is right the hunters who are restricted to public ground are going to tell us private land owners to go pound sand. If they can't expect to fill two tags neither are you going to. Sadly even when this reg takes effect they still won't find the public land hunting one bit better in 5 years. The birds will still move to private land soon as they get pressured. There are only so many birds resident on any parcel of public ground and about 5 hunters for every one of them. Sure a few may make it an extra few days and a hand full more hunters get their bird, because someone had to pull out. However, it won't be significant. Most of the private land hunters avoid public lands anyway and even if they go onto public it's late season when all the half hearted have quit. I have not killed a public land gobbler in Ohio in years, maybe decades. I am not your competition and almost all the private land hunters in my area will tell you the same. I am aware other areas may be very different.
It just is not science based is my beef. Punish the hunters because it makes a few people feel better about their possibility of success, while doing next to nothing to preserve the flock. It's more about spreading out the kill then saving the turkeys. Watch the kill will be almost identical next spring with or without the reg. The out of staters will like this, they can hope there's more public land gobblers when they get here....sorry guys, someone else still killed them early season.
As turkeyreaper69 said :
QuoteI mean hell look at Arkansas they have tried this shorter season and reduced bag limit for what? 10 years. Doesn't seem as if they've improved the slightest.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 07, 2021, 10:26:00 AM
Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.
Again, back to my "sticky wicket" point: The real legal question that will ultimately arise in those states that allow larger bag limits on private property is whether states can take a publicly-owned resource and give preferential treatment to private entities in regard to utilizing that resource? I am of the opinion that, at some point, there is going to be one or more lawsuits in this country where that question will have to be resolved. ...We'll see how long it takes...
Quote from: Bolandstrutters on August 06, 2021, 04:28:20 PM
Do these states not realize about 40% of adult gobblers die every year of natural causes?
Just out of curiosity where did you get this information? What exactly are considered natural causes?
Private land owners own the land, not the game on it.I hunt turkey pretty much exclusively on private land in Ohio, and i'm ok with a temporary bag limit restrictions. But it has to work in concert with predator managment and habitat improvement. I don't need to kill a bunch of gobblers in one season to have a great hunting experience.Reduced bag limits worked for waterfowl. It also worked for deer in Ohio, we can only shoot one antlered buck, and i don't hear a great hue and cry to make it legal to shoot 2 more per season.I remember when seeing a deer was exciting, because there wasn't that many around. Now they are everywhere, due to restrictive limits that helped the herd grow and that allowed much more liberal bag limits. The idea that a property owner should be able to have a higher bag limit than on public land is nonsense, and is a really bad slippery slope when it comes to the long term future of hunting.Bag limits and seasons set by scientific studies and by different zones i will agree with.
Just to make this clear:
1.) I in no way what-so-ever endorse a different bag limit for private land than public. The same limit for all is right. When they started this public vs private limit thing I did not like it.
2.) I realize the wildlife belongs to the state, hell I manged for 31 years in this field. I understood every single day we worked for all the citizens of Ohio and were stewards of "Their Resource. I realized the outdoors people paid my salary and bills. In return I done my very best to prosper, protect and provide that resource for the future.
3.) This debate should always be about the resource and it's well being,first. The utilization of a excess of harvestable and renewable resources, made available to all, is wise management.
4.) I believe regulations implemented by the emotional pleas of the public and not based on proven results and preponderance of hard facts and principle is in error and not conducive to fixing problems.
5.) I agree, I don't need to kill a bunch of birds either, but I do like hunting them. If I truly believed reducing the limit to one would recover our flock I would be all in, I'd even say close it completely. If our flock is truly in trouble, just stop all harvest. I could live with that if there was tested evidence that the closing would fix it, but no one has shown that to be true.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 06, 2021, 03:10:33 PM
Sadly as the previous commenter mentioned states definitely are taking the easy way out. I'm sure if this reduction in bag limits passes the DNR in Ohio will pat themselves on the back in a few seasons and chalk this restriction up as a win for themselves. Although there is nothing warranting this brash change in regulation as Deerhunt1988's data points out. I chalk this up to the fear mongering chamberlain effect, I'm sure this proposal was stirred up due to public outcry of hunters who've not yet seen the highs and lows of population swings every few years.. and just freaked out due to numbers being down compared to their rookie season in 2018. As Cwedding pointed out, I'm sure the elimination of killing hens and Jakes in Ohio would compensate and contribute more to the Ohio turkey population rather than restricting residents and non residents alike from taking a 2nd Buckeye state spring gobbler.
This sums it up pretty good. I've hunted Ohio quite a bit since 2002 as a nonresident.
Quote from: GobbleNut on August 07, 2021, 01:44:54 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 07, 2021, 10:26:00 AM
Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.
Again, back to my "sticky wicket" point: The real legal question that will ultimately arise in those states that allow larger bag limits on private property is whether states can take a publicly-owned resource and give preferential treatment to private entities in regard to utilizing that resource? I am of the opinion that, at some point, there is going to be one or more lawsuits in this country where that question will have to be resolved. ...We'll see how long it takes...
Wow, Missouri has been doing it for a long time. Not with turkeys yet? But for the Deer there are antler point restrictions and restrictions on antlerless harvest. Many conservation areas have had these in place.
Some you cant even shoot a antlerless deer with a bow. Other allow antlerless harvest but you have to use your any deer buck tag. With a bow on private land you have pretty much an unlimited number of antlerless permits.
some more food for thought:
Ohio"s estimated deer population is 680,000 and the 2020/21 harvest was 197,735 or approx. 29% + of the population. I don't see many crying for reduced deer harvest.
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/animals/mammals/white-tailed-deer
Ohio's turkey flock is estimated at 190,00 and the average spring harvest over the last decade approx. 18,000 or 9+% of the population. Add in the 1063 fall 2020 kill and it's 10%....come on look at the real data
How is it we're so worried about a 10% harvest and not a roughly 30% harvest? Can anyone say politics?
More turkeys die of old age. Why are they reducing bag limits if it's not just pandering to public pressure from surveys. I say it again, the falling numbers are not from spring gobbler harvest, but something is happening to the nest and poults. Plus I did notice there were actually less permits sold last year and I wouldn't be surprised if the total hours per hunter was down. The nonresident sales were way off because of restrictions from covid and that also reduced harvest some.
Quote from: eggshell on August 07, 2021, 08:37:10 PM
some more food for thought:
Ohio"s estimated deer population is 680,000 and the 2020/21 harvest was 197,735 or approx. 29% + of the population. I don't see many crying for reduced deer harvest.
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/animals/mammals/white-tailed-deer
Ohio's turkey flock is estimated at 190,00 and the average spring harvest over the last decade approx. 18,000 or 9+% of the population. Add in the 1063 fall 2020 kill and it's 10%....come on look at the real data
How is it we're so worried about a 10% harvest and not a roughly 30% harvest? Can anyone say politics?
POLITICS me off.
It stinks.
Just one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.
Eggshell, my post wasn't meant toward you personally, just commenting my thoughts on different bag limits and my thoughts on what is going on. If i offended you, i apologize, as i did not intend to.
QuoteJust one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.
Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean. Especially when you take out the cicada years of 1999 and 2016.
Quote from: the Ward on August 07, 2021, 08:53:00 PM
Eggshell, my post wasn't meant toward you personally, just commenting my thoughts on different bag limits and my thoughts on what is going on. If i offended you, i apologize, as i did not intend to.
We're cool, appreciate the thoughts
Quote from: eggshell on August 07, 2021, 08:56:08 PM
QuoteJust one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.
Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean.
Oh ok, Ohio broods don't look too bad. Wonder what the study guide lines were for those calculations?
And agree with you on gobbler harvest.
Example is that if 1000 hens were observed and 35% or 350 had poults average 2.5 per hen. Is that the calculation? Or another way?
That seems to be the problem. At least in Missouri past reports show only 35% of hens reported had broods at all. And about 3.5 poults per hen, with about 80K hens reported. And the other 65% had NO poults, which mainly should be nest failure or destruction from nest raiders.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 07, 2021, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: AndyH on August 07, 2021, 02:05:55 AM
What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.
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I don't understand that. Ohioans must want to submit to a 1 bird 2 week season like their brethren to the west in Indiana. Not sure why folks advocate for their hunting opportunity to be further restricted. If someone's property has a low population of birds why not set a personal limit of one gobbler, then travel to say either a buddys property, wma, etc to try and fill your second tag. It's very irresponsible for folks to jump on this bandwagon of wanting their seasons restricted statewide based on their observations on their 200 acre family farm or local wma that has been pounded by non residents the past couple years. As it has already been pointed out the elimination of jakes and hens in spring would save 15-25% of birds in the state without taking away one off the bag limit. The mass hysteria on the Internet forums and Facebook groups these last few years and led by some "doom and gloom" biologists is to blame for this, this proposal isn't backed by science. If only we had a biologist out there who would stand up and voice his studies in opposition to all this season cutting and bag limit reductions.... I mean hell look at Arkansas they have tried this shorter season and reduced bag limit for what? 10 years. Doesn't seem as if they've improved the slightest.
Quote from: TurkeyReaper69 on August 07, 2021, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: AndyH on August 07, 2021, 02:05:55 AM
What you guys that don't live and hunt in Ohio don't realize is the state has been sending out surveys for the last several years and this is obviously what the majority of the hunters wanted. In my opinion this will help but there also needs to be a focus on predator control and habitat improvement.
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I don't understand that. Ohioans must want to submit to a 1 bird 2 week season like their brethren to the west in Indiana. Not sure why folks advocate for their hunting opportunity to be further restricted. If someone's property has a low population of birds why not set a personal limit of one gobbler, then travel to say either a buddys property, wma, etc to try and fill your second tag. It's very irresponsible for folks to jump on this bandwagon of wanting their seasons restricted statewide based on their observations on their 200 acre family farm or local wma that has been pounded by non residents the past couple years. As it has already been pointed out the elimination of jakes and hens in spring would save 15-25% of birds in the state without taking away one off the bag limit. The mass hysteria on the Internet forums and Facebook groups these last few years and led by some "doom and gloom" biologists is to blame for this, this proposal isn't backed by science. If only we had a biologist out there who would stand up and voice his studies in opposition to all this season cutting and bag limit reductions.... I mean hell look at Arkansas they have tried this shorter season and reduced bag limit for what? 10 years. Doesn't seem as if they've improved the slightest.
I can vouch first hand for Arkansas that hunting regulations alone have done very little, while other issues remain, such as weather, predation, and habitat. 16 day seasons (plus 2 day youth) for nine straight years, with 18 day seasons the two years prior. Jake harvest was 39% of total harvest from 1982-1999. In 2000, a jake limit of 1 was implemented resulting in an average jake harvest of 22% of total harvest from 2000-2010. In 2011, jakes were limited to 1 per youth only, resulting in an average jake harvest of 4% of total harvest from 2011-2020. The fall season was canceled in 2009. Despite these efforts, the population in many areas continued to decline. I'm thankful for the AGFC deciding to be conservative, but otherwise it has not been the answer alone. During the decline, predator #s have grown, baiting with corn has increased, hogs have been introduced in a lot of areas they didn't previously exist, and wet weather has been the norm in April, May, and June. I'd say many areas have seen habitat relatively unchanged or improved, but with far less turkeys. Other areas have simply lost habitat. Poult Per Hen counts were dismal in 2017 (.86) and 2018 (.95). With all that said, don't get your hopes up if your in a state that has made these changes, if nothing else is addressed.
Owlhoot, As far as I know it's total number of poults observed divided by total hens observed. Mail carries do a survey, as well as public reports and wildlife employees. I have filled out a few of those forms and they ask for all turkeys observed and ask how many adults and young. So if you see 5 hens with zero poults it still goes into the equation.
Quote from: eggshell on August 07, 2021, 08:56:08 PM
QuoteJust one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.
Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean. Especially when you take out the cicada years of 1999 and 2016.
That brood data tells me that next year's harvest will be better than 2021's strictly due to more gobblers on the landscape thanks to the 2020 hatch. 2020 had the best reproduction in the previous 4-year period. Any decent biologist could have told you harvest numbers would likely be decreasing for 2021 due to three years of below average production. Crazy to me how they act like the low harvest was a surprise. If they wanted to reduce the bag limit, it would have made more sense to do it in 2020 or 2021. But I guess enough of the public wasn't complaining then.
If 2021 has a hatch on par with 2020s, you will see the harvest start the climb up again. But unfortunately turkey hunters in Ohio may never be able to kill a 2nd bird again if this proposal passes. But that's OK, everyone deserves a participation turkey!
Quote from: owlhoot on August 07, 2021, 08:25:04 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on August 07, 2021, 01:44:54 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 07, 2021, 10:26:00 AM
Public land hunters likely won't be saying it or encouraging it, but different bag limits for public and private lands is already happening. And at the current rate, I expect to see more of it implemented in the future.
Again, back to my "sticky wicket" point: The real legal question that will ultimately arise in those states that allow larger bag limits on private property is whether states can take a publicly-owned resource and give preferential treatment to private entities in regard to utilizing that resource? I am of the opinion that, at some point, there is going to be one or more lawsuits in this country where that question will have to be resolved. ...We'll see how long it takes...
Wow, Missouri has been doing it for a long time. Not with turkeys yet? But for the Deer there are antler point restrictions and restrictions on antlerless harvest. Many conservation areas have had these in place.
Some you cant even shoot a antlerless deer with a bow. Other allow antlerless harvest but you have to use your any deer buck tag. With a bow on private land you have pretty much an unlimited number of antlerless permits.
Good point made, owlhoot. I am certain Missouri's situation is not all that uncommon. There are probably a number of states that have discriminatory regulations in their hunting rules. New Mexico is probably the "poster boy" of discriminatory practices in our hunting laws. Simply stated, states get away with these kinds of laws because nobody has challenged it in court. In addition, if these regulations were to be challenged (an expensive proposition), there is the chance the laws would not be overturned anyway (as in all matters, politics can raise its ugly head in the process).
However, the basic tenant in wildlife management in the U.S. is that (non-migratory) wildlife within the borders of each state is "held in trust" for the citizens of that state,....and it applies whether that wildlife is on public or private land. Suffice it to say, the application of that tenant is questionable in a number of states.
Having said that, it should also be pointed out that there are "loopholes" in that tenant,...some legitimate, some not-so-much,...that a lot of states tend to exploit. Too often, those loopholes are exploited based on money and politics rather than fairness to our citizenry.
Do we have the 2021 nonresident numbers?
Quote from: arkrem870 on August 08, 2021, 09:34:21 AM
Do we have the 2021 nonresident numbers?
Not yet, but we all know what they will look like!
That will be the data that is likely pushing this decision.....because nothing I've seen in the information provided would lead me to believe these regulation changes are justified at this time.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 08, 2021, 09:18:15 AM
Quote from: eggshell on August 07, 2021, 08:56:08 PM
QuoteJust one thing to consider is that as of right now the deer are repopulating. Turkeys are not.
If deer layed eggs they would be in serious trouble too.
Here are the numbers per ODW. I really don't see this big slump, I see some fluctuation, but a pretty steady linear mean. Especially when you take out the cicada years of 1999 and 2016.
That brood data tells me that next year's harvest will be better than 2021's strictly due to more gobblers on the landscape thanks to the 2020 hatch. 2020 had the best reproduction in the previous 4-year period. Any decent biologist could have told you harvest numbers would likely be decreasing for 2021 due to three years of below average production. Crazy to me how they act like the low harvest was a surprise. If they wanted to reduce the bag limit, it would have made more sense to do it in 2020 or 2021. But I guess enough of the public wasn't complaining then.
If 2021 has a hatch on par with 2020s, you will see the harvest start the climb up again. But unfortunately turkey hunters in Ohio may never be able to kill a 2nd bird again if this proposal passes. But that's OK, everyone deserves a participation turkey!
These comments bring up a couple of (unrelated) points.
The first is the tendency of states to set regulations well in advance of the hunting season to which they apply,...as well as trying to make those regulations as consistent as possible. Doing so makes it difficult, if not impossible, to assess the impacts of reproductive success or failure on harvest goals. Because of this, hindsight is always going to be 20/20. Truth be told, hunting seasons/bag limits should be established through a thorough census of the individual populations as close to the proposed hunt as possible.
Now, admittedly, with turkeys and as it applies to spring gobbler hunting, we are (or should be) looking at both long-term population trends as well as short-term reproductive success. Regardless, turkey hunters (and wildlife managers) get a bit antsy when we start manipulating harvest structures up or down on a yearly basis.
The second point applies to the "participation turkey" comment. As a "serious" turkey hunter that wants to have as much opportunity as I can, I tend to agree with that attitude of not setting regulations and bag limits based on the "casual" hunter (i.e...the "participation turkey" guy). However, I don't think most wildlife managers see it that way. They most likely are (and probably should, as much as we don't like it) going to cater to the majority,...which is most likely those that are casual turkey hunters,...and just want a "participation turkey".
Unfortunately, those are also the guys that fill out those surveys and tell wildlife managers that one turkey is enough,...even when there might be no biological justification for that position.
Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less
Quote from: eggshell on August 08, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less
Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off work in spring of 20 going hunting.
Ward, I saw those numbers somewhere but I can't seem to find them now. I know in 2020 nonresidents weren't allowed to buy permits in Ohio unless they already had them and those accounted for about 4500 less nonresident permits in 2020, but there was a big jump in resident tags with people being on covid furlough. I'll do some checking and see if I can find that.
Quote from: eggshell on August 08, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
Ward, I saw those numbers somewhere but I can't seem to find them now. I know in 2020 nonresidents weren't allowed to buy permits in Ohio unless they already had them and those accounted for about 4500 less nonresident permits in 2020, but there was a big jump in resident tags with people being on covid furlough. I'll do some checking and see if I can find that.
Thanks Eggshell, I wondered what the breakdown would be. I would guess non resident deer hunters account for a much higher percentage of license sales vs turkey hunters, but i could be wrong. I forgot about them stopping license sales to nonresidents, I think some other states did the same thing. Numbers and stats are probably going to be a little wonky for 20-21, due to the effect corona had on everything.
Ha, sounds like the title to a sci-fi thriller...."The Covid Effect!"
Quote from: the Ward on August 08, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: eggshell on August 08, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less
Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off work in spring of 20 going hunting.
I requested the info and just received it.
2021:
56,394 resident turkey permits
4,869 non-resident turkey permits
Just as I suspected, non-resident numbers continued to increase.
Resident turkey permits dropped from 2020 but are still slightly higher than 2019.
Quote from: Paulmyr on August 09, 2021, 02:15:10 AM
Ha, sounds like the title to a sci-fi thriller...."The Covid Effect!"
:TooFunny:
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 09, 2021, 09:03:40 AM
Quote from: the Ward on August 08, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: eggshell on August 08, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less
Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off work in spring of 20 going hunting.
I requested the info and just received it.
2021:
56,394 resident turkey permits
4,869 non-resident turkey permits
Just as I suspected, non-resident numbers continued to increase.
Thanks for the info. Where can you request this info at if you don't mind? Roughly 60,000 turkey hunters in 21 then.
Quote from: the Ward on August 09, 2021, 09:12:56 AM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on August 09, 2021, 09:03:40 AM
Quote from: the Ward on August 08, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: eggshell on August 08, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
Turkey permit sales were down in 2021, 68,000+ 2020 and 61,000+ in 2021. Approximately 7,000 less
Is there a breakdown on the resident vs nonresident licenses? I wonder if the 7000 less in 21 was due to all the people off work in spring of 20 going hunting.
I requested the info and just received it.
2021:
56,394 resident turkey permits
4,869 non-resident turkey permits
Just as I suspected, non-resident numbers continued to increase.
Thanks for the info. Where can you request this info at if you don't mind? Roughly 60,000 turkey hunters in 21 then.
Just sent a public records request to the email at the following link:
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/discover-and-learn/safety-conservation/about-ODNR/policies/public-records
Thank you Deerhunt, much appreciated.
The comment period on rule changes is now open. All you Ohio Guys comment and let them know how you feel. For or against
https://ohiodnr.gov/wps/portal/gov/odnr/rules-and-regulations/rule-changes/proposed-rule-changes/wildlife-proposed-rules
I am against the bag limit reduction because it will not make any difference. If you explore the site on rule changes you will see only 6800+/- second tags were sold last year. As I already posted there was data that showed about 40% of those filled their second tag. Actually I was in error earlier as I used the total tags sold number for my 40% calculation. So that means even less gobblers will be saved. I am guessing it might me 1500-2000 more gobblers will survive the 2022 spring season. Scatter this over an entire state and this is a ludicrous idea that it will have any impact on declining flocks. I actually think our flock is stable. Again, it's just social pandering and it may well be as someone said...the "chamberlain effect". I have already heard several die hard turkey guys say they are headed out of state next spring soon as they fill their one tag. Like I said get ready for a flood of buckeyes surrounding states.
Suffice it to say there are LOTS of steps that can be taken in terms of reducing harvest (if that is the goal) between just jumping from a two-bird statewide limit to a one-bird limit. We have discussed such options before here in other threads. In addition, there are states that already have implemented systems that include zones, drawings, maximum permit numbers, etc. (Wisconsin comes to mind) that generally achieve the desired harvest goals but still allow additional hunting opportunity for those that want it.
It would be easy enough for Ohio to just look at the more progressive hunting strategies used by other states (again, WI as an example) and follow suit. When all is said and done, it just takes a little ingenuity on the part of a state's DNR/game managers, as well as the desire to seek better alternatives on behalf of sportsmen. All too often, those in charge of making changes just don't want to make the effort and are content just to take the easy way out for themselves.
Although I sometimes agree there is a time and place for the "one-bird-limit" mentality, it appears to me that in the case of Ohio's situation, it is going to the extreme when other, more viable and acceptable options are available and would very likely be just as affective in achieving the desired goals.
Your so right Gobblenut. What gets me is they still want to maintain a 30 day season, allow all day hunting for 3 of those weeks, still have a fall season (although I love my fall hunt) and seem to ignore that our basic hen to poult counts are pretty stable and an over all consistent gobbler kill. Sure numbers dropped some from the saturation years, but hey these are supposed to be smart people they should have expected that. I am more embarrassed of the things they do every year. As a former manager in Ohio Division of Wildlife, I can say I think the good ole boys who built this population are probably shaking their heads as well or rolling in their graves.
There's a new breed managing our wildlife today and I'll refrain from saying what I think of them. For one thing they worry too much about political correctness. ARRGGGG
For you Ohio fellers that want to head this off, here's what I would do (based on the tact that we took here in New Mexico forty years ago).
Although I have tended to bad-mouth the direction NWTF has taken over the last couple of decades, one positive still in place is that it pulls together turkey hunters into a force of political clout. You should contact the state NWTF organization and put together a lobbying effort to offer alternatives to the straight one-bird limit (that is, assuming that the NWTF chapter in Ohio agrees that the proposed changes are not warranted).
The collective voice of a large group of sportsmen all presenting the same views is much more powerful than random, scattered folks all making different recommendations,...often which contradict each other.
It works. Back in the early 1980's, we did this in New Mexico to get our Game Department to go from a one-bird spring limit to a two-bird limit. You want to head this off? Get organized and speak with one voice coming from a large and organized group of turkey hunters. Base your argument on science and biology (which it sounds like are in your favor),...and come up with rational alternatives to the proposal that would logically reduce harvest (and hunting pressure if that is perceived to be a problem) but still provide the desired level of hunting opportunity.
Do this in a constructive, cooperative, and non-antagonistic manner and you may be surprised that your Game Commission is willing to listen to you and modify their proposal. :icon_thumright:
Thanks for posting the link Eggshell. I am not sold on the idea of a reduction in spring bag limits. I agree with you that it may be a knee jerk reaction from the Odnr to show that they are doing something about real or perceived drop in turkey population numbers. I think the problem in numbers may be more localized than statewide. I know in my area the population numbers are down from my own personal observation. I really think a multi-prong approach would help numbers. First, stop allowing hens to be taken, at least for awhile, and eliminate fall season, also temporarily. If they don't eliminate fall, then make it illegal to have both turkey and deer tags when hunting over bait. There is 0 doubt in my mind turkeys are taken in fall over bait piles as targets of opportunity while deer hunting. Then focus on habitat for nesting, and a reduction in nest robbers and predators. One of the things that hurt in the overall predator reduction theme is the requirement of a fur bearer permit. How many hunters are going to purchase one just to go shoot a few coon? Especially after they raised the license prices substancially across the board? It is actually cheaper for me to hunt non resident in Pa than in my home state, with much more access to productive public land. But that is a different topic for a different day.
The limit reduction in Ohio is about one thing , spreading the kill around to different folks . We can't have some ol timer{who hasn't bought a new call decoy gun or camo in 20 yrs} killing 2 birds when the facebook guy who buys a all new kit can't even kill one . Dropping a week off the season , no all day hunting and no shooting hens in the fall .
Your right again Gobblenut and I have been a part of those discussions. In the old days we often talked new regulations over with sportsmen's groups and come to a consensus. I fear that they are never going to let that happen, they seem intent on ramming this through before anyone can stop it. I truly don't understand why or what is driving this agenda. I hope the NWTF isn't already behind this, they do seem to get their way a lot. If they would share the science it would help a lot.
I been on the inside of this and was recommending a change in a fish management plan on a specialized species. We held open meetings and shared the data with the anglers clubs involved and came to a mutual agreement that the change was good for the species. Once they heard the reasoning and saw the data and learned we actually had a plan, the involved groups voted to proceed and even started a fund raiser to help with the new plan. In general hunters and fishermen want what's best for wildlife, but they don't like things shoved down their throat or being snookered. I often spoke at banquets and mingled at tournaments and so forth. I was called names at times, but generally my presence and participation was appreciated. I always told my crews, share as much info as you can legally share...we do not keep secrets. My administrators supported this, but these days it seems they want to keep us blind.
Quote from: FLGobstopper on August 07, 2021, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: Bolandstrutters on August 06, 2021, 04:28:20 PM
Do these states not realize about 40% of adult gobblers die every year of natural causes?
Just out of curiosity where did you get this information? What exactly are considered natural causes?
https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/02/02/declining-turkey-populations-prompt-hunting-changes-in-pennsylvania/
Hey at least someone had actual data to back up their plan, Kudos to Pa.
Quote from: Bolandstrutters on August 11, 2021, 04:31:00 PM
Quote from: FLGobstopper on August 07, 2021, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: Bolandstrutters on August 06, 2021, 04:28:20 PM
Do these states not realize about 40% of adult gobblers die every year of natural causes?
Just out of curiosity where did you get this information? What exactly are considered natural causes?
https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/02/02/declining-turkey-populations-prompt-hunting-changes-in-pennsylvania/
That is good stuff. Thanks for posting it.
Is a shame though that the Thanksgiving time is being cut out some. Some families surely made a tradition out of hunting during that time.
Did ODNR get a copy of this ?
At least Ohio didn't discriminate against NR's like SC did. In SC's last harvest change, they reduced NR's to 2 birds, while allowing the vastly higher number of resident hunters to still take 3 birds each spring. Not only that, but NR's have to pay $100 for 2 turkey tags. Obviously the impetus behind these changes were not the turkey population, but instead screwing NR's and making more $$$ off of them.
So kudos to Ohio. And yes, I agree that Ohio fall hen harvests should end until such time as the population recovers. I have hunted Ohio for spring and fall turkeys, and have seen the majority of fall harvests were hens. That makes no sense when you are facing a declining population.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
Here's the latest, Ohio is recommending reducing the fall season by 3 weeks. This is a positive move in my mind and should have been done first. It takes a lot incidental bow kills by deer hunters out of the picture. As a fall hunter I agree with this move more so than the spring tag reduction.
good hunters will still birds, others, not so much. Others hunt 1-2 days & cry when they arent succesful.
I would rather only be able to hunt them with stick and string than to be limited on (OPPORTUNITY).
One day people will wake up and realize all their easy buttons are backfiring at the expense of opportunities.
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