School me on penatration, killing difference between 5 a d 6 shot.
From my experience #6's hot is getting "iffy" at 40 yards. I suspect it would be a little better if it's a high velocity load. I only shot standard velocity and had a few birds regain their feet and require a finishing shot. These were right around 40 yards. If I where to go back to lead it would be #5's. I don't like having to worry about them getting back up.
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I think I've got a chart on my work computer that I'll post up tomorrow if I can find it. Shows penetration of ballistic gel for various different shot types and sizes.
With a nice even pattern no gobbler is walking away from a lead #6 at 40 yards. I'll take a lead #6 over a lead #5 all day assuming your shooting a quality shell. If I shot lead I would shoot the Winchester Long Beards with #6s and never look back.
Saying that #5s will penetrate better but your giving up extra pellets down range.
Quote from: dirt road ninja on January 24, 2017, 09:56:03 PM
I think I've got a chart on my work computer that I'll post up tomorrow if I can find it. Shows penetration of ballistic gel for various different shot types and sizes.
Can't find it, but there seems to be a few different charts online. I just did a quick search and found a couple.
Quote from: knightrider on January 24, 2017, 07:55:37 PM
School me on penatration, killing difference between 5 a d 6 shot.
It can be beneficial to think in terms of the total energy at the target, terminal energy, as opposed to the energy or penetration of a single pellet. Killing power is really all about the total amount of energy that hits the target, in this case the head/neck area of the turkey.
The best way to reliably kill a turkey is to have a swarm of pellets in that vital area from which he can't escape. That is one reason that the quality of the pattern is as important, maybe more important, than the numbers within that pattern. Turkeys sometimes move at inopportune times and we as hunters can also move just a bit due to excitement or fatigue from holding a gun in place for long periods of time. A dense pattern, without gaps of 2" or more, will provide some insurance in the event of movement.
For many gun-barrel-choke combinations, a load of #6 shot will throw a more dense and even pattern that it will with larger shot sizes. Since it's all about the total energy that hits the target, more is better and with #6 shot you get more hits due to the density of the pattern.
A dense pattern of #6 shot, well placed, will cleanly kill a turkey at 40 yards.
Having said all of that, there is no substitute for range time to determine exactly what works best in a particular gun-choke.
Thanks,
Clark
Agreed. As far out as a good pattern can be maintained, no turkey should be able to walk away from being hit with either shot size.
It has been difficult for me to shoot a pattern that breaks 100 in 10" circle at 40 yds with standard lead loads in #5. For that reason I gave up on #5's. Shooting a turkey with #5's there was more of a concern of not putting many pellets in the turkey rather than penetration. Can generate 140's to 160's with standard lead loads consistently. Was able to generate some awesome patterns with #5 LB's and then started having some patterns that were cut in half and other inconsistent results. LB #6's had consistent results just too tight for my liking. Back to #6's and #7's in standard lead loads and Hevi 13.
#5's are a happy medium they hit harder than 6's and have more pellets than 4's
I would go with 6's due to density and try to get as close to 2oz or more shot in the load. Anything over 40 yards is a gamble due to a shotguns pattern falls off fast after that. I wouldn't have ever thought of killing a turkey with such a small shot until I shot one with Hevi13 7's and saw the damage first hand. The draw back is if you happen to get any shot in the breast it can be hard to find.
I know this is one thing I consider, I have for a long time just used 5's as a shell to get the best mix of shot quantity and penetration.
So here's the deal, learning to bring them birds in close, at half of that "40 yard" range. I know that this seems to be the "standard" but I (and those I hunt with) kill birds consistently in the 15-17 yard range with the shotgun, even closer with a bow. That takes out all this I need this choke, I need this shell. There isn't a bird that's not dropping dead at "My" range, I have even had a guy kill them with a little ole' .410. One thing with this it is more important that your gun be "dead on" at this range, I opted for a scope to accomplish this and has been a deadly combination. I hear a lot of people missing up close as their pattern hasn't "opened", if you sight your gun in at this range you will be amazed at a pattern density.
MK M GOBL
Let your pattern dictate the shot you use. Good luck.
Food for thought. I thought hard on what could I use to simulate a turkey head neck. I was wanting to test the longbeard 6's, as they throw a nasty pattern ridiculously far but are 6's. Then I thought, a regular grey squirrel should do it. I went to the field out back and saw one feeding on the chicken feed. I guessed it for about 50, and figured that would work. I shot him stone dead. Then I stepped it. 58 steps. Much further than I thought. I take long steps for yardage. All of the pellets were just underneath the skin on the opposite side. I went in and got the range finder, thinking maybe I was off. Nope. 59 yards. Now, I don't like long shots, I just wanted to see something similar to compare. I have shot squirrels (with squirrel dogs) with high brass 6 at around 40-45 when squirrel hunting and had to shoot them again, but that very well may have been the pattern. Basically, I wanted to compare them to hevi #6 which my cousins swear by to well over 40. I think these shells do penetrate as well as they say (the longbeards that is). I don't know how, but they flat do it. This was the 1200 fps load. Again, I am not condoning that distance for turkeys at all, especially in the woods with possible brush in the way. But they made me a believer in the penetration that day. My cousin was there and since I had plenty of 4's, 5's, and the old school remington hevi shot, well he gladly took the 6's off my hands. Will a normal turkey load of 6's have the same penetration, I do not know. Never tried them on squirrel or turkey anywhere near that far. But the longbeards, they are the real deal it seems. I just have to back off the choke constriction when I run out of the Remingtons because man are they tight.
A single high velocity #6 will kill a turkey past forty yards. Sometimes a #5 load will pattern better than #6. The better pattern increases odds of getting that single pellet on the bone. So, go with whichever load patterns best regardless of shot size. Putting a swarm of either on target inside 40 will have the same result.
I have found that LB #6 is good out to 40 yards but prefer it at 30 or under. When hunting woods I only use #6. But much of my hunting is in hay fields and the range can be a bit longer so I use #4 LB. To test last year I hung two aluminum cans on a branch at 50 yards. Shot one with LB #6 and the other with LB #4. The can shot with #6 stayed on the branch but was riddled with shot. Penetration was not that good. The can shot with #4 LB did not have as much shot but was blown several yards back and really peeled back the aluminum.
Later in New Mexico I shot a Turkey at 48 yards with the LB 6's and the Turkey ran about seventy yards before folding. Did not realize that I was shooting the 6 load rather than the #4. Next day I shot a really nice Turkey at about the same distance with #4 LB. Dropped on the spot.
Never shot #5 but the combination of these two loads for different situations works well for me. I use a BPS 12 ga with a Kicks .665
I do pattern my shotgun every year for familiarity and the fact that even with LB #6 you really have to tighten up at the closer ranges like in the woods. I use open sights and no scope
Either one works fine I prefer 6s only because they don't offer 7.5s. killed a pile at 40 with the old 3-2-7.5 federals wish they still made that shell or better yet a longbeard with 7.5s. Will 4s penetrate more sure but my goodness a turkeys head is not that tough. They aren't that tough to kill a #8 low brass game load with 1 1/8 of shot will pulverize one at 30 yards I know from experience tried it just to see. But out of your 2 choices the 6s are the way to go.
For argument's sake, Hevi #6s have the same density as #4 lead, right? So, why not shoot the Hevi 6s and get the best of both worlds, a superior pattern with great penetration? They Hevi shells are expensive, but how many times are you going to shoot each turkey season?
Jim
Quote from: blueridgegobbler on February 11, 2017, 07:57:31 PM
Either one works fine I prefer 6s only because they don't offer 7.5s. killed a pile at 40 with the old 3-2-7.5 federals wish they still made that shell or better yet a longbeard with 7.5s. Will 4s penetrate more sure but my goodness a turkeys head is not that tough. They aren't that tough to kill a #8 low brass game load with 1 1/8 of shot will pulverize one at 30 yards I know from experience tried it just to see. But out of your 2 choices the 6s are the way to go.
Agreed a Turkey is not that hard to kill but a number 4 LB gives a little bit of insurance if the yardage is farther than estimated. Also as I stated I shot two turkeys between 45 and 50 yards and the one with 6s almost got away. Now some say they won't shoot a turkey any father than 30 yards and I respect that but I do shoot farther. Turkeys do not get away from the #4 LB. I know a lot of hunters that have wounded birds with #6 shot no matter what the type of shells they are using because they gave into temptation and shot farther then they should have or beyond their ability.
I also like that LB is inexpensive and I normally catch it on sale for 12-13 a box at Wally world no less. At least I did last year. This allows me to shoot much more. I like to stick soda cans on old arrows and shoot them at different distances.
"For argument's sake, Hevi #6s have the same density as #4 lead, right? So, why not shoot the Hevi 6s and get the best of both worlds, a superior pattern with great penetration? They Hevi shells are expensive, but how many times are you going to shoot each turkey season?"
As stated I can practice more with LB than Hevi. Hevi shells may be a good choice for someone that does not shoot a lot or hunt that much. But my main reason for not using them is that I am unable to get good patterns with them using my current setup. I am also the type that when something is working really well why change for minimal improvement. I am the same with my rifles. I set up a load an stick with it.
Enjoyed the feedback and other opinions. I really like to know what works for others and do, when time permits, try other formulas.
I love to get them close with either 4-6s. I want to see their head fly off!
Actually, the hevi 6 is comparable to 5 lead. Still a killer flat out. To answer the ops question, it comes down to pattern and range. If the pattern is there, you can kill most likely, depending on range. If you don't have a dense pattern of 6s at a given distance, then they may not drop him at the longer distance. Reason being is energy hitting the target nor carries by individual pellets but the swarm hitting the head. Without a good swarm, the bigger pellets may be more effective as they have a better chance of breaking bone.
I see guys use the #4 has more energy in case the bird is farther and that is correct. What happens when you don't have the pattern at the misjudge range to make all that energy count? I've seen it done, I've seen birds lost with #4's.
#6's result in lost birds because people shoot farther than they should with #6's. True, and I've seen it done with #4's and #5's. I had a friend lose a bird with #4 lead, so automatically they don't kill well, you know because it's always the ammo's fault. We took out a range finder and he shot the bird at 66yds, still plenty of energy but a crap pattern at 66yds knocked the bird down and he lost some feathers right before he flew off.
I've killed birds with #4, #5, #6 and #7htl. They are all dead but none have been killed farther or with more authority than with a load of #7 htl so that's all I shoot. I'm a fan of pattern density with good shot.
I still shoot a lot of patterns with lead but when it comes time for killing, pass me the #7 HTL please.
Of your two choices, I'd go with #5's any day of the week. Little less shot, but more energy at the extreme ranges. No Brainer.
Okay the answer is simple. Go with the better pattern. Pattern density is what kills and generally 6's will pattern better than 5's. Your pattern fails before penetration, assuming head/neck shots on wild turkey gobblers.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on February 15, 2017, 07:23:15 AMYour pattern fails before penetration, assuming head/neck shots on wild turkey gobblers.
That used to be the case, but Winch LBs have changed the equation. Those patterns with 6s in many cases extend beyond the killing ability of the pellets.
If a gun shot 125 or so in the 10.at 40 yards and no large gaps with 5's , why not use it ?
Plenty of density and the energy at 40 that a load of 6's has at 30 yards.
I lean more toward pattern density than anything. I've killed two turkeys with Remington Duplex 4x6 that sucked at patterning and which honestly was the only 2.75 load I had for an old Browning A5, and before I understood patterning truly. But I guess I got enough in him because both are dead. That being said I've also killed them with 12 gauges in 3in Winchester red #6's, 3.5in Winchester Supreme #6's, 3.5in Hevi-Shot Magnum Blend, 3.5in Longbeard #6's, 3in Longbeard #5's, and 20 gauge 3in Heavyweight 7's. Shot size and shell size in any turkey load is sufficient as long as your gun shoots them well enough at the distance you intend to kill a turkey within common sense .
Part of the problem with the longbeard load of sixes is it's a nominal 1200fps. The old Supreme load, and supposedly the new Double XX version, does 1300fps. What has been said here the longbeard load won't do, the 1300fps load will. You also have to take into account distance estimation. An actual forty yards is further than most think it is.
Also, one should not assume sixes will out-pattern fives at distance. You gotta shoot and see.
accidentally shot one at 50 yards with 6s last year. thought he was 40. shot a limb at point blank range and the wadding exploded about 6 inches from the barrel. he dropped. I ran over to him. this was before I even realized how far he was. he had brains hanging out his ears.....still managed to put a plenty of pellets in the kill zone. couldn't believe it though. I keep my barrel polished, and have a perfect choke. patterns well. however I don't intentionally take 50 yard shots....but 40 is a dead bird every time unless you pull and miss
i have shot 16 out of my last 17 toms using win supreme 3.5" #5 or lb 3.5" #5.....i am never switching to anything else from my #1 turkey gun.
For a 12 gauge i like 3 inch 5 and for 20 gauge i like 6 - 7 Federal H W ....