I'm in the middle, maybe, of a study of the new Winchester Long Beard shells. I'd really appreciate your experience, good, bad or indifferent, with them.
Let's get a discussion going.
Thanks,
Clark
(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/moses25roman/Mobile%20Uploads/utf-8BSU1BRzAyOTkuanBn_zps140421dd.jpg) (http://s794.photobucket.com/user/moses25roman/media/Mobile%20Uploads/utf-8BSU1BRzAyOTkuanBn_zps140421dd.jpg.html)
I have only fired one of these loads at a target, but my first impression was good. A 3" LB #6 shot from my 1300, 26" barrel, IC .660 put 228 pellets into a 10" circle at 40 yards. My only concern is POI as it was a few inches low and to the right from POA. This could have been operator error as I was shooting free hand. I will bench rest test sometime before spring.
:icon_thumright: I'm not getting performance like that ^^^... BUT... It's the best lead I've shot in my limited experience. I stocked up on thugs a few years ago. Now, I have a stock pile of the 3.5" 6s in LB also. I took one shot and decided to hunt with thugs this spring because I thought it was TOO tight at close range with my IC .675. If I had a factory gun/choke this would be the first load I tried to pattern. LBs IMO give the novice turkey gun shooter a head start in getting a good load/gun to ethically kill turkeys.
I've got a substantial inventory of the EnvironMetal Hevi-13 shells in 3" and 3 1/2" and get the best turkey patterns w/ three different shotguns that I've ever gotten w/ factory ammunition and will be hunting w/ these shells for a long time. With that said, I've evaluated shotgun shells and reloaded for over 45 years, and the Winchester LongBeards produce the best patterns w/ a lead shotshell which I've ever seen. You can't really compare the terminal kinetic energy and results of tungsten based loads w/ lead loads due to the number of variables many of which are incalculable. With the market uncertainty, pricing, and availability of tungsten, I wouldn't hesitate to advise anyone to commit fully to the LB loads and evaluate choke/gun combinations which produce the best 40-45 yard turkey hunting patterns. I strenuously object to the "long range" marketing by both Winchester and EnvironMetal and have voiced my concerns to prominant individuals w/ both companies, but it's obvious that they are more concerned w/ profitability than the turkey resource and ethical hunting practices.
I am impressed with the shell/load.
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc5/cuppednlocked/Snapbucket/FF83DF46_zps48ca5b8b.jpg) (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/cuppednlocked/media/Snapbucket/FF83DF46_zps48ca5b8b.jpg.html)
I shot them (#5's) in both my Mossberg 835 and Benelli SBE 2 (Rhino choke in both). I didn't get the stellar numbers that some others achieved. Not bad but not terrific. I'll still stick with H-T-L loads. I've been shooting Nitro's and Mag Blends with very good results. I prefer the knockdown power of H-T-L at longer distances just in case I underestimate.
My benelli sbe 1 did not like them. I like 5s in lead. I ran them through a kicks 660, a kicks .655 and a rhino .660. I like the HTL loads. Great experiences with nitros and magblends, both 3" and 3.5". For lead, I like the turkey thug shells with the kicks .660
The Browning loves 'em. I couldn't be happier... Dead birds and the price is right.
The Longbeard #4 loads are the best patterning #4 lead loads I have ever shot. :OGturkeyhead:
Clark,
This is a fine shell for the lead shooter whether it be in 3" or 3.5" loads. I feel that some more open chokes,ie. extra full or full choke may be the ticket for the bead sight only hunter.
This does seem to be a possible dream load for the 20 gauges with the ultimate solution to the 3.5" shell disaster in 20 gauge.
It does have future for sure for turkey and large animals such as fox and coyote.
I really appreciate all of your replies. I'm launching what is probably my largest study to date on shells and chokes. I've already done some work and the rest will be dependent upon the weather and the ability of my shoulder to stand up under the abuse. Most if not all major choke makers will be represented in the study, so it will take a while.
Again, thanks for your input.
Clark
I have had great luck with them both at the target range and in the field. I'm shooting the 3 1/2" #6's out of both my SBE II and my 870 SPS. I switched from shooting hevi-13 #7's and have not looked back. At a fraction of the cost and the same performance, I don't think you can go wrong with them. I took 3 birds with them last spring and have no complaints.
cuppednlocked, that is a fine pattern you posted. I would be happy with that at 35 yards, much less 40 yards. And that's a Lead shell combo. Nice and even. Very impressive.
Shooting the LB's in 3" out of the 870's.
211 in a 10 @ 40 21" bbl. Kicks .655. Lb 6's
163 in a 10 @ 40. 28" bbl. Kicks .660. Lb 5's
Consistent even patterns with the 3" 6's but I've seen some variation in the 3" 5 patterns. Mis-shaped patterns and patterns cut in half. I'm now shooting the 6's only out of both guns with Kicks chokes and getting great results. Going to try the short barreled gun with a Indian Creek .665 and see what it does with the Lb's on the next trip out.
I'm up to 30, as I recall, different chokes to evaluate with those shells. Most of the major commercial producers will be represented, so it should yield some useful information.
I've had to cut it off there in order to be able to complete the study in a reasonable timeframe. It's also weather dependent and hopefully I'll have some good days at the range.
I'll only be evaluating #6 shot for this go round and only 3" WLB shells.
Thanks,
Clark
I am more interested in penetration than 10 inch numbers with these shells. Will you address that in your evaluation?
Quote from: deadbuck on November 10, 2014, 03:29:18 PM
I am more interested in penetration than 10 inch numbers with these shells. Will you address that in your evaluation?
I understand. Penetration is indeed an important factor of any turkey load. In this study, it will strictly be patterns and the density of the patterns with chokes designed specifically for WLB shells and other chokes that are not specifically designed for them.
This of course a good bit of data on specific shot size penetration out there. In a subsequent article, I can address that subject.
A few years ago, I did a pretty comprehensive study about shot penetration using microcrystalline wax as a medium. It's a very stable medium and simulates fleshy tissue quite well.
Thanks,
Clark
Regarding the Penetration question: I remember reading that the pellets were on the large side, so they should be big and heavy, with good penetration for #6 Lead shot.
I shot 4,5 and 6 shot on huge pieces of paper after reading the big shot and small shot for size bought, and also for the resin weight confusion.
All my loads pellet counts were real close with the pellet count per ounce charts. So i was pleased.
Great or average patterns depending on choke.
I have not cut any apart though. Make sure to get the resin off before measuring, FyI :)
As far as penetration FHW 7's are the cats meow! Factory loads ;)
But the 4's in lead always whacked em too.
Clark: I used 3.5" Longbeards this year and they will be my go to turkey load in future.
I will check tonight at home but from memory 40yds, 3.5" 6's gave me around 258 in 10" with Stoeger 3500 , 650 Jellyhead and about 210 in 40 with a 935 Mossberg , Stardot. Laser ranged.
I expected the Mossy Stardot combo to be better but the Stoeger really liked the Longbeards.
Dave
I appreciate the information.
Thanks,
Clark
Quote from: TheSportsman on November 03, 2014, 08:48:49 PM
My benelli sbe 1 did not like them. I like 5s in lead. I ran them through a kicks 660, a kicks .655 and a rhino .660. I like the HTL loads. Great experiences with nitros and magblends, both 3" and 3.5". For lead, I like the turkey thug shells with the kicks .660
Mine didn't like the 5s either until I tried a PG 670.
650 sumtoy and #6s is rifle like.
Im still kind of new but with a 835/24inch deep cleaned ported barrel with a Truglo gobble stopper extreme choke and #6 long beards. I got in the mid 250s hit wise inside a 10inch circle at a 30yards(laser range finder).I was happy with that but inside 20 it was super tight on paper.I am using williams firesights and feel at close range some sort of optic may be better.Not sure if im going to try other loads or go the optic route. .