I build calls for fun in my spare time.
I got to thinking the other day...some of the best calling I have ever heard (and I am not really even talking about competition calling) was difficult for me to discern the type of call that was being used until I was able to put eyes on it.
Anyone else feel this way?
I think it all has to do with the way you hear musical tones with your ears ... opposed to the different calls your hearing being played .. that's why people like a variety of different calls and builders , it's what you like and what kills in your area...
Quote from: Greg Massey on January 18, 2020, 01:54:37 PM
I think it all has to do with the way you hear musical tones with your ears ... opposed to the different calls your hearing being played .. that's why people like a variety of different calls and builders , it's what you like and what kills in your area...
Agree with you Greg, what one likes to hear individually translates to confidence. And confidence kills birds in your area.
I never heard a glass/crystal call that didn't sound like a glass/crystal call.
I'm not saying they won't kill turkeys because I would be sorely mistaken if I did.
I've never heard a box call that didn't sound like a box call.....
Some sound really good some don't, just like a wild turkey hen.
I have always put "rhythm" before anything else, I rely on my CODY World Class Slate because of how I can run it and the sound it produces (range of tones) that call is pure turkey! From there I have one other glass call in my pack and it's like a $10 call but kills birds, I carry a half dozen strikers and half dozen mouth calls. Like what has been said having confidence in your calling is key.
MK M GOBL
I have not really used it since I got into custom calls but I have an old Mad Super Crystal that I have absolute confidence in, I leave it and a couple of other production calls in my blind in a dry box for rainy day use and I know I can call up turkey any time with it. I will say I felt even better with the striker that came with it but I fell and lost that 2 years ago and I have not found another Purple Heart striker that sounds as good on it.
Just remember this............. No matter WHAT type of call..........NONE of them sounds the same in your house, at the outdoor show, in the builder's shop or in your truck as they do at 50-100 yards in the woods.
Used to be on a call company's pro-staff. Periodically, we'd get prototype calls sent to us. Usually diaphragms. We ere required to run, evaluate and rate each one for determination of the final product. Me and a fellow staffer who lived fairly locally would get together and go to the woods on a Sunday. We'd space out 75 yards or so and run the prototype calls.........and usually some other calls we had just brought for the heck of it. It's VERY telling.......what happens when there's no echo in your room or reverb in your head or feedback in your ears, no sound of a striker running or a paddle clicking.
To BOTH our ears........a good box call is THE MOST realistic hen sound in the woods. Indistinguishable from a wild hen. Diaphragms and friction statistically tied for 2nd place.
I was sure on a hunt one day someone using a mouth call had gotten in between me and a gobbler, when a hen stepped out, I have also heard some of the worst calling ever and I could not for figure out what the guy was using and again the real deal step's out. In the woods it can be hard to tell what's real or not.
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I agree. I was laughing to myself once at how horrible someone was calling and out stepped a hen. Couldn't hardly believe it.
Quote from: Yoder409 on January 18, 2020, 05:05:07 PMTo BOTH our ears........a good box call is THE MOST realistic hen sound in the woods. Diaphragms and friction statistically tied for 2nd place.
To me it is between a box and diaphragm. Purrs are hard for me on boxes, though.
Quote from: Yoder409 on January 18, 2020, 05:05:07 PM
Just remember this............. No matter WHAT type of call..........NONE of them sounds the same in your house, at the outdoor show, in the builder's shop or in your truck as they do at 50-100 yards in the woods.
Funny thing as you mention this, I used to take a camcorder in the timber by the house set out about 50 yards and run all my calls, first was to "hear" what I sounded like, my rhythm and then what the calls tone was.
EXCELLENT POINT! Spot On
MK M GOBL
one call I can always identify is a truck barreling down a road on public land, slamming on brakes, turning down some Toby Keith as they step out of the truck and start wailing away on a box call, that is for sure a pure red neck caller!
Quote from: 1iagobblergetter on January 18, 2020, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I agree. I was laughing to myself once at how horrible someone was calling and out stepped a hen. Couldn't hardly believe it.
I'm always amazed at how often these and similar statements are made but yet, I've never heard a "bad sounding hen" in real life or on someone's video. One would think, in this day and age of smart phones, there would at least be a recording of it somewhere. ???
IMO most calls have turkey in them. Most callmakers build a quality call. But 2 other things have to happen in order for a call to be as good as it can be. 1. The turkeys have to like the sound and respond to that call from the caller 2. That caller needs to have a GREAT Deal of Confidence in the call. To me, it's a combination of ALL these things.
For me as a caller, it's about how much CONFIDENCE I have in the call and the reaction I receive when I play it.
Quote from: 1iagobblergetter on January 18, 2020, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I agree. I was laughing to myself once at how horrible someone was calling and out stepped a hen. Couldn't hardly believe it.
Couple years ago I was about to yell at a buddy of mine to stop with his calling (he sounds awful) and just as I was getting ready to spout off, I saw the hen. We were about 50 yards apart and she was only about 10 feet from him.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Most experienced turkey hunters sound better than a real hen. We get caught up on calls that we think sound awesome when in reality emotion and cadence outweighs the pitch. Granted if you listen to hens there seems to always be a certain one gobblers just hammer at. If I can identify that hen , I will run a call that sounds as close to her as I can. I also listen to her sequence and emotion and use the same in my sequences. I have taken several birds doing this.
Quote from: 1iagobblergetter on January 18, 2020, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I agree. I was laughing to myself once at how horrible someone was calling and out stepped a hen. Couldn't hardly believe it.
Like others, I've also had more than one occasion where I've heard some "clown" comin through the woods cranking away on an old crappy sounding box call only to find out it's a hen.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on January 19, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
Most experienced turkey hunters sound better than a real hen. We get caught up on calls that we think sound awesome when in reality emotion and cadence outweighs the pitch. Granted if you listen to hens there seems to always be a certain one gobblers just hammer at. If I can identify that hen , I will run a call that sounds as close to her as I can. I also listen to her sequence and emotion and use the same in my sequences. I have taken several birds doing this.
I also feel that cadence is the key and I often use spitten and drummen's strategy, especially on a "henned up" gobbler. I use whichever call I have to match the pitch of the dominant hen and match her emotion as best I can. Sometimes it's just enough to get the gobbler to come in for a look and other times it challenges the hen and she comes in to let the challenger know that she's the boss.....and he will follow. Even if he doesn't follow, it's always fun to get into a pissin match with an old dominant hen.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on January 19, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
Most experienced turkey hunters sound better than a real hen. We get caught up on calls that we think sound awesome when in reality emotion and cadence outweighs the pitch. Granted if you listen to hens there seems to always be a certain one gobblers just hammer at. If I can identify that hen , I will run a call that sounds as close to her as I can. I also listen to her sequence and emotion and use the same in my sequences. I have taken several birds doing this.
Good statement. Hunters have been taught that they need to sound exactly like the competition caller or other "expert" callers. Same goes with duck hunters. It's funny hearing people critique calls or callers saying things like "needs a little higher pitch on the front", or "call sounds to hollow at the end of the Yelp" like they have advanced degrees from the wild turkey sounds institute. Don't get me wrong, I have heard in my opinion some downright sorry sounding calls. But some of the criticism I have heard at times as well as praise for certain calls dumbfounds me.
Quote from: simpzenith on January 19, 2020, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: 1iagobblergetter on January 18, 2020, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I agree. I was laughing to myself once at how horrible someone was calling and out stepped a hen. Couldn't hardly believe it.
I'm always amazed at how often these and similar statements are made but yet, I've never heard a "bad sounding hen" in real life or on someone's video. One would think, in this day and age of smart phones, there would at least be a recording of it somewhere. ???
I guess everyone doesn't spend their time in the woods with a phone or camera in front of their face.
The old Primos videos, don't remember which year, they had a hen on camera that sounded pretty rough, the Primos boys remarked about the calling. Another possibility is the camera jockeys don't recognize poor calling and don't have their camera running lol
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 20, 2020, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: simpzenith on January 19, 2020, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: 1iagobblergetter on January 18, 2020, 06:08:20 PM
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I agree. I was laughing to myself once at how horrible someone was calling and out stepped a hen. Couldn't hardly believe it.
I'm always amazed at how often these and similar statements are made but yet, I've never heard a "bad sounding hen" in real life or on someone's video. One would think, in this day and age of smart phones, there would at least be a recording of it somewhere. ???
I guess everyone doesn't spend their time in the woods with a phone or camera in front of their face.
The old Primos videos, don't remember which year, they had a hen on camera that sounded pretty rough, the Primos boys remarked about the calling. Another possibility is the camera jockeys don't recognize poor calling and don't have their camera running lol
Maybe, but as commonplace as many make it out to be, you'd think it wouldn't be as elusive as bigfoot to get an example or two of it. ;)
Do you normally see every hen in the woods that's calling? Does every hunter in the areas you hunt sound like NWTF calling competition finalists? If not....do you see every hunter in the woods you've heard calling?
Most turkey calls will play better than the person playing it.
Truth is, there ain't no turkey in the woods that could win a "human judged" turkey calling contest. I have heard thousands of hen turkeys over the decades,...and they are consistently inconsistent. For every hen turkey I've heard that sounds like a champion contest turkey caller, there are twenty that call with some variation of that sound.
Don't get me wrong. Great turkey callers have one thing in common,...they have the ability to change the sounds of their calling to match the conditions at hand. Sometimes those conditions call for searching through your calling repertoire to find the sound a gobbler wants to hear,...and there are often times that sound is nothing like what you think it should be. In addition, there are regularly times when even slight variations in calling will make the difference between a gobbler coming,...or going.
Having said all of that, each of us eventually gravitates towards those calling sounds that most consistently have worked for us in the past. That is a great advantage we have over the newbies. However, even those of us with a lot of experience should understand that when our "go to" sounds aren't working, sometimes sounding like the worst contest caller in the woods might. ...I have seen that happen way too many times over the years to think it is all that unusual.
Bottom line,...to answer the question raised as to "how good can a call be?" The answer is that it is only as good as the turkey that is being called-to thinks it is!
This idea of a terrible sounding hen is based on a false impression of what a turkey should sound like. I've heard a lot of variations from hens, but have yet to hear one that I thought sounded bad. A big flock of Merriam's hens can be some of the loudest most obnoxious sounding turkeys there is. That's probably the case with any big flock. Ive heard sounds that I knew that I could not duplicate on my best days (and that's just variations in a Yelp). It's often those scratchy, off key and tempo yelps that assures me it is a real hen. But....that's not what I'd call bad sounding...that just sounds like a real hen going about her usual business being a turkey.
If YouTube is any indication of the skill level of most callers.....most folks suck. In fact I'd say considering the kind of calling that a lot of folks are willing to share, they don't know the first thing about how they or a turkey sounds. It obviously doesn't matter on some days, but it's painful to listen to.
As far as competition calling. I've not listened to a lot of it, but at the highest level those guys can make any sound a turkey makes. Other than some of the cackles, I've not noticed them making unrealistic sounds. The cackles aren't unrealistic, but I think it's a rare turkey that actually cackles. Rare doesn't equate to unrealistic. Competitive duck calling is another story. I've never heard a duck highball like some of that stuff. Maybe I've not listened hard enough.
I probably don't want a critique of my own calling. I know for most Eastern hunters, I call way too much and way too loud and its probably too predictable a sound to be anything but a hunter.
Quote from: LaLongbeard on January 18, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
Yep. I've more than once heard someone scraping on a box call and then saw the hen actually making the awful racket. Would not have believed it if I'd not seen it.
I've had the same thing happen more than once. One time I actually backed out cause I thought I was too close to someone. From afar watched a Tom n hen fly down. I'd have sworn it was a bad box caller
Quote from: Hobbes on January 21, 2020, 10:36:21 AM
This idea of a terrible sounding hen is based on a false impression of what a turkey should sound like. I've heard a lot of variations from hens, but have yet to hear one that I thought sounded bad. A big flock of Merriam's hens can be some of the loudest most obnoxious sounding turkeys there is. That's probably the case with any big flock. Ive heard sounds that I knew that I could not duplicate on my best days (and that's just variations in a Yelp). It's often those scratchy, off key and tempo yelps that assures me it is a real hen. But....that's not what I'd call bad sounding...that just sounds like a real hen going about her usual business being a turkey.
If YouTube is any indication of the skill level of most callers.....most folks suck. In fact I'd say considering the kind of calling that a lot of folks are willing to share, they don't know the first thing about how they or a turkey sounds. It obviously doesn't matter on some days, but it's painful to listen to.
Good little chat we got going on here....
The fact is that if every one of us based our calling on heading to the turkey woods, listening to the turkeys in our areas, and then trying to sound like them, I believe we would find an awful lot of variation in what each of us defined as good turkey calling. Another fact is that, listening to the highest level contest callers (and don't get me wrong, those guys are amazing), I often hear them replicating sounds that, in all honesty, I have never (or extremely rarely) heard from a wild turkey in the areas I have hunted (i.e....fly-down cackling et. al.)
Again, the bottom line is that we humans,...especially in the contest-calling world,...have defined what is good turkey calling,...and what is not. Wild turkeys do not adhere to those definitions. It really doesn't matter if I think some guys calling sucks (which, like you Hobbes, I often do), the "proof is in the pudding",...that is, whether that calling does the job or not.
As you say, some of the calling in YouTube videos, I consider atrocious (and also like you, Hobbes, I would not dare to post "samples" of my calling on YT). In those very same YouTube videos, those what-we-call horrible callers are calling-in and killing gobblers! ...And it ain't necessarily because they are hunting Turkey Utopia!
Another thing we will never know in actual turkey hunting/calling: Each of us uses whatever calling combinations we favor in our hunting,...out of dozens (or more) of possible combinations. We either succeed or fail in each encounter,...but the fact is, in the successes, we don't really know if anybody else's tactics,...perhaps completely different than ours,...would have worked or not. And on the other hand, we don't really know if the gobblers we failed on would have come running to the calling of one of those "sucky" guys! And finally, to be totally honest, we don't know whether a gobbler we called and killed with our "average" calling would not have been runt-off into the next county by the so-called "world champ"! (But granted, I will put my money on the world champ every time....)
How many have ever seen a turkey judge a calling contest? 99.9 percent of the custom calls will kill a turkey. The best turkey call in the world is one that someone standing in front of your table wants to buy.
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 21, 2020, 11:12:53 AM
Quote from: Hobbes on January 21, 2020, 10:36:21 AM
This idea of a terrible sounding hen is based on a false impression of what a turkey should sound like. I've heard a lot of variations from hens, but have yet to hear one that I thought sounded bad. A big flock of Merriam's hens can be some of the loudest most obnoxious sounding turkeys there is. That's probably the case with any big flock. Ive heard sounds that I knew that I could not duplicate on my best days (and that's just variations in a Yelp). It's often those scratchy, off key and tempo yelps that assures me it is a real hen. But....that's not what I'd call bad sounding...that just sounds like a real hen going about her usual business being a turkey.
If YouTube is any indication of the skill level of most callers.....most folks suck. In fact I'd say considering the kind of calling that a lot of folks are willing to share, they don't know the first thing about how they or a turkey sounds. It obviously doesn't matter on some days, but it's painful to listen to.
Good little chat we got going on here....
The fact is that if every one of us based our calling on heading to the turkey woods, listening to the turkeys in our areas, and then trying to sound like them, I believe we would find an awful lot of variation in what each of us defined as good turkey calling. Another fact is that, listening to the highest level contest callers (and don't get me wrong, those guys are amazing), I often hear them replicating sounds that, in all honesty, I have never (or extremely rarely) heard from a wild turkey in the areas I have hunted (i.e....fly-down cackling et. al.)
Again, the bottom line is that we humans,...especially in the contest-calling world,...have defined what is good turkey calling,...and what is not. Wild turkeys do not adhere to those definitions. It really doesn't matter if I think some guys calling sucks (which, like you Hobbes, I often do), the "proof is in the pudding",...that is, whether that calling does the job or not.
As you say, some of the calling in YouTube videos, I consider atrocious (and also like you, Hobbes, I would not dare to post "samples" of my calling on YT). In those very same YouTube videos, those what-we-call horrible callers are calling-in and killing gobblers! ...And it ain't necessarily because they are hunting Turkey Utopia!
Another thing we will never know in actual turkey hunting/calling: Each of us uses whatever calling combinations we favor in our hunting,...out of dozens (or more) of possible combinations. We either succeed or fail in each encounter,...but the fact is, in the successes, we don't really know if anybody else's tactics,...perhaps completely different than ours,...would have worked or not. And on the other hand, we don't really know if the gobblers we failed on would have come running to the calling of one of those "sucky" guys! And finally, to be totally honest, we don't know whether a gobbler we called and killed with our "average" calling would not have been runt-off into the next county by the so-called "world champ"! (But granted, I will put my money on the world champ every time....)
You mention the sucky guys. As a kid all I did was mouth call. I practiced all year long n figured I was pretty decent. My buddy was terrible I thought.
He used a Quaker boy twin and never had a clear break between sound. Instead of yelp yelp yelp it was sorta flutely n run on. Lalalalalaala is how he sounded. It was gonna screw ya I thought. Every time he did that the birds would gobble it seems. I wish I could post how it sounded. The birds loved it n responded. Crazy I thought but not uncommon as you'd think
Quote from: ol bob on January 21, 2020, 12:02:17 PM
How many have ever seen a turkey judge a calling contest? 99.9 percent of the custom calls will kill a turkey. The best turkey call in the world is one that someone standing in front of your table wants to buy.
I'd take that a step farther....99.9% of the production calls will kill a turkey. I did it for years before touching a custom call.
Quote from: MK M GOBL on January 18, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
I have always put "rhythm" before anything else, I rely on my CODY World Class Slate because of how I can run it and the sound it produces (range of tones) that call is pure turkey! From there I have one other glass call in my pack and it's like a $10 call but kills birds, I carry a half dozen strikers and half dozen mouth calls. Like what has been said having confidence in your calling is key.
MK M GOBL
Well said